Ep. #2, Collaboration Platforms with Joyce Lin of Postman

Patrick Woods: Awesome, Joyce. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.

Could you tell us a little about who you are and what you're working on?

Joyce Lin: Of course, yeah. It's great to be here.

My name is Joyce Lin, and I'm a developer advocate at Postman based here in San Francisco.

Patrick: Cool. What are you working on at Postman?

Joyce: I've been at Postman for almost four years now. Actually, it's probably three and a half years.

Postman is a company that when I joined it was incredibly big, it's a huge community and it's only gotten bigger.

So when I first started we weren't really focused on awareness, we were focused on education.

As I've been with Postman, we've kind of shifted our focus. Right now it's primarily education and our team is bigger.

Oh, my gosh. The last year we've grown in headcount leaps and bounds just internally, so we're dealing with internal organizational issues, just scaling that up and seeing how we can harness that energy and have it be good for our community.

Patrick: Cool. You mentioned the growth of the team there, but before we jump to that, could you tell us a little bit about what Postman is and what it does for the folks out there who might not be aware?

Joyce: Yeah, I probably should have started with that.

Postman is an API development platform, so it's primarily for developers, but actually we just did--

Every time somebody downloads the app we take a poll of "What's your job function?" And the second most populated answer is the "Non-technical identifying."

In fact, a lot of DevRel people want to display their own tech.

If they have an API, or they just want to show a proof of concept, a lot of DevRel will use Postman for their conference talks or workshops.

Patrick: Awesome. How did you get into DevRel in the first place?

Joyce: I have a storied background. I've changed careers a few times in the past.

I started off, when I first got into tech, on the business side .

I was doing product management, I did some marketing, and when I moved out to San Francisco I decided to take one of those coding boot camps.

At the end of that coding boot camp, I was thinking "Maybe I want to do engineering, maybe I want to go back to doing product," and kind of fell into DevRel.

I've never heard of it as a function, but it actually takes a lot of my marketing hat, my technical skills, my ability to communicate how to do something and empathize with the end user.

It took a lot of my background, so even though I have a bunch of functions that I won't even go through today, the broader experience you have gives you more empathy, I think, which is good for DevRel.

Patrick: Yeah, I think we hear that a lot. I would totally agree.

But I'm interested in your perspective on what is the role of empathy in DevRel?

Joyce: That's probably the one. A lot of people say, "You should be extroverted, you should be able to talk to people."

And a lot of people disagree with that nowadays. "You should be able to write content. You should be able to build things. You should be able to have conversations."

In all of that I think the one thing tying everything together is if you have empathy for your end user. My title is Developer Advocate but anybody in developer relations, if you can empathize with your end user that's going to allow you to say something that much clearer and actually have credibility when you're trying to address some of these pain points.

Patrick: Yeah, I totally agree. What are some ways that you're able to demonstrate that empathy, either one on one or at scale? How does that how does it come through?

Joyce: For Postman, one of the things that I did when I first started with the company is I started having customer conversations.

It was because we didn't have people in sales, we didn't have people to give demos or give workshops.

I ended up going and having those customer conversations and it's something that I miss now.

I wish I had more time to devote to talking with the people that use Postman.

Just understanding what they're doing in their day to day even if they're not using Postman, understanding the substitutes and understanding what they are using instead of Postman helps me understand their "Day in the life of."

And then being able to feedback their pain points to product makes me that much more credible when I have this wide sampling of conversations.

Patrick: Yeah, the role of DevRel as a funnel of information back to the product team seems to be a common one and a really important one.

How have you managed those relationships effectively?

How do you make sure that the information makes it back to the right people in the right format that they can then use in the product context?

Joyce: On the product advocacy side, I think this is something that companies struggle with.

For us, it's rather anecdotal.

We will have conversations with people and then pipe it into our chat platform, we'll save some information and some interview information or usability testing information in a wiki.

But unless there is some carrot for the PM, for the product manager that's guiding the roadmap for something, I think sometimes it gets lost in the shuffle and it's just the person that screams the loudest either on an online forum, or we use GitHub issues.

If somebody kicks up their feet, then they tend to get more attention.

So I don't have a good solution there, but it is something that we're actively funneling back to the team.

Patrick: You mentioned a number of tools there with regard to how to interact with the product team.

What would you say is the one tool that you can't live without right now?

Joyce: This sounds like such a product plug.

I personally don't think that our team has come to rely on any single suite of tools so much, but the one thing that I am in daily is Slack for communications.

Postman is a distributed office, especially now, so we have so many different tools that we use for communication.

I talked about having a wiki and that's our single source of truth for more permanent stuff, but any daily communications, especially when we're distributed, has to be king.

So if I could brush up my Slack search skills, oh boy. I would be so much more productive.

But I would probably say Slack I can't live without, because that's our primary mode, even more so than email and even more so than Zoom.

Patrick: What's your view on Slack as a tool for communities?

Is it mostly used for you all as an internal platform, or does the community have a--?

Is there a community chat that happens on Slack as well? Or, what does that look like at Postman?

Joyce: A few years ago we used to be on Slack and I thought that was really fun, because if I wanted to answer questions I could peek in and answer some questions.

But as you know, there's limitations with very big communities, being able to save that information and being able to search for it became an issue.

A few years ago we switched over to a community forum, and we actually use Discourse.

As far as being able to organize things and drive traffic to certain places, that's what we're using right now for community interactions.

Patrick: Are there any tools or technologies that you learned about recently that you're really excited about?

Joyce: No. No, I'm kidding. There's a bunch of different tools out there and there's not a single tool that really fits every use case, so right now Postman is using Discourse.

It's really good for not having drive-by questions, so people can follow threads.

But I don't see people hanging out there and really connecting, shooting the water cooler topics.

There's other types of technology that foster that kind of interaction better, so if we had in-person events going on like a meet up, a meet up would be a good example of being able to network and do those informal interactions.

On Discourse, I don't find that we are able to do that as much.

On Slack, sure as heck, we would not be able to manage the volume going through Slack.

Stack Overflow, that's another one that we've been talking about recently.

If you go on stack overflow and look for the tags, the questions that are tagged with Postman-- There's no way.

We'd have to hire 100 people to manage those questions, but in the meantime when we release something new are we going back there to make sure that people can find it and answer their own questions?

These are all question marks, I don't have any answers.

Patrick: What's your favorite DevRel trick of the trade?

Joyce: This is something that I don't know if it's a trick of the trade, but it's something that gets neglected.

It just came up in our DevRel sync internally with the Postman team today, but it's syndicating content that you create.

If I am taking the time to research something, build something, learn something on my own, I totally know I'm going to write a blog post. But can I create a little video, a little explainer video, can I turn it into a proposal for a conference talk? Can I take a little snippet of it so that my social media team can tweet it?

It's being able to recycle, it sounds not great, but it magnifies your voice that much more if you think about the syndication.

Patrick: So much of the work for content is the initial ideation and thinking through "What do you even talk about in the first place?"

Getting the most bang for your buck makes a ton of sense.

So, what do you think is the secret to building things that developers love?

Joyce: I talked about this already, but I do believe it's empathy.

I was lucky enough to join Postman after they had already found product market fit, and they had already had three million users at that time.

I wasn't involved with "We should actually be focusing on this instead."

So now my role over the last few years has been, "Patrick. You use Postman already, can I show you how to use it a little bit more robustly?"

It's been on the education and really deepening somebody's understanding of Postman, the tool, and that comes with empathy.

When somebody says something sucks, are they just trolling me?

Or do they have legitimate concerns about why they don't like how a certain feature works?

That's how I maintain credibility.

I can speak to somebody using Postman Tech and say, "I understand why you don't like this as much. Here's what's coming, but in the meantime I totally would understand why you would want to use something else."

Patrick: It sounds like you've got a lot on your plate there, as most DevRels do. How do you demonstrate that what you're doing is working?

Joyce: It's interesting. I'm curious what other people will say when you ask them this question, because Postman has already achieved product market fit.

It's early stage, but it's not a startup anymore. So how do you demonstrate "What are your OKRs? How do you justify your salary?"

Is a question that has changed over the years at Postman.

In the past, if you were able to generate good relationships or eventually shake out some written content or get to speak at a certain conference, that was your value.

But as we grow bigger and bigger, I think OKRs have to change with an organization.

Our numbers, our targets are actually changing. What we're being held accountable for is changing.

In fact, when I first started with the company none of my job was about building product awareness because, so many developers already knew Postman.

It was about education. Now the company as a whole is we're rubbing elbows with lawyers, with people that don't ever call themselves developers.

Now I'm coming back to "We need to focus on Postman awareness," because we've drawn our circles differently.

Patrick: What does that look like, just very tactically?

Is that page views on certain landing pages? Is it sign ups?

Or, what are the things that you and your team are responsible for?

Joyce: It's all of that. It is eyeballs on a content post.

Something that I would like to get more sophisticated about, but we're not quite there yet, is demonstrating that the people that we are talking to and the people that we had an interaction with are using Postman that much deeper.

I can't remember, I was at a DevRel meet up where somebody was talking about this, and I can't remember what company it's attributed to but they just dropped a token.

"If you attended this meet up, now you're part of this cohort. How are you using this differently?"

This is a much more sophisticated user, and then you could really demonstrate that value. I'd like to be able to do that, but we're not there yet.

Patrick: What are you currently excited about?

Joyce: This changes. This has changed year to year.

I feel like I would answer this so differently if I was Postman year one, Postman year two, etc.

But currently, because I just talked about us as a company drawing our circles differently, so we're not just focused on developers even though I'm developer relations.

You have to expand the definition of what a user is.

Now we've expanded it to anybody that uses Postman, and it's so exciting the number of people working with APIs that don't identify as a traditional developer, either career changers or people that are just working for tech companies.

They need to understand what their company does, but their function is not developer.

For the company and for tech as a whole, I'm excited that we're being more inclusive as to who can work with tech and who can shift from being a consumer of tech to being a builder or a maker or a "Putzer" of tech.

Patrick: Shifting gears a bit, what would you say is your most controversial DevRel take?

Joyce: I'm so glad you asked this question. I'm going to take a cop out. I am so vanilla, I don't have that many controversial--

Like, in DevRel world I don't have that many controversial opinions.

I was trying to wrack my brain and I'm like, "Don't focus on sales, focus on education."

But that's not controversial anymore. Maybe a couple of years ago, but now everyone agrees that's the right way to go.

So I asked some of my co-workers, I said, "Do you have any tea that you want me to say to Patrick?"

So one of my colleagues, Sue Smith, she's based in Glasgow and she's responsible for developer education.

This one, I don't know how much I agree with it, but I'd love to talk with you about whether or not you agree with it.

She said that DevRel is supposed to be inclusive and open and about community, but that DevRel sometimes focuses like a gatekeeper.

Being like, "I'm interested in getting into DevRel." You have all these internal jokes, and I think this was on Twitter recently. "Developer Avocado" is an inside joke that now makes other people not get it and be like, "What is it about?"

I'm not sure exactly how to phrase that, but it's very special to be DevRel, so don't even think about it.

But otherwise, it's all about community and openness.

Patrick: It seems like something communities in general have to be aware of is the in-group language with the inside jokes, and the common things we all loathe and the common things that we're excited about.

I can see how someone might have that perspective. What do you think about that?

Joyce: I personally haven't seen that level of exclusion, but the Postman community is so broad and there's so many new jobs coming.

Postman is a perfect tool for when you're first getting your feet wet with APIs, so the company has done a lot recently with our open source projects just making it a lot more understandable.

"I've never submitted a pull request before. What do I do?" And just laying it out very clearly.

Labeling good first issue, or we have a forum. Have you ever posted anything on Stack Overflow and just been afraid as soon as you hit enter?

So having a forum where it's not like we're going to berate you if you ask something silly.

I feel like I've experienced the very kind and gentle approach, and I don't hang out on Twitter very much to be fair, so I'm not really-- I haven't seen it.

But that doesn't mean it's not true.

Patrick: It's something that I try to be aware of. I mean, I'm a white dude, so I'm not exactly the one to weigh in on whether "Is it inclusive or not?"

Joyce: I asked one of my other coworkers, so another one of my very brilliant coworkers, Arlémi Turpault, he is a developer advocate out of London.

His hot take, his controversial hot take is that you don't need to travel to do DevRel.

I think it's been demonstrated recently, but I don't even know what percentage of my time is travel.

To have that taken down to 0%, it wasn't very much but to have it taken down to 0%, I'm OK with that.

But some people, their bread and butter is meeting face to face, making friends at meet ups or networking at conferences.

So, how necessary is that? How necessary is it that we hire out of a major tech hub?

That's his hot take, that you don't need to travel to do DevRel.

Patrick: I think that take is getting less and less hot over the past few months. How has your team adapted to being grounded?

For all intents and purposes, both you personally and the broader group?

Joyce: We weren't a very travel-heavy group to begin with, but we did just kick off a world tour and I think we got through four world cities before everyone went into lockdown.

We're just doing what a lot of other companies are doing, we pivoted our in-person events to virtual events.

We started doing live streaming, which I love. I haven't done the podcast yet, we haven't talked about doing podcasts like you're doing, and then just having a webinars.

In the past our webinars were crickets chirping, and now that we decided to throw our weight behind virtual events our webinars are thousands of people attend them.

We're having them several times a month and it's just a really good way to interact with people still, even if you can't interact with them face to face.

Patrick: What do you think changed to make them so popular?

Or is it just a function of the broader trends that everybody's trapped at home?

Or, have you all made explicit changes to the programming or the promotion or anything like that to make it more well-intended?

Joyce: This was pretty much programming that we didn't have in the past.

We had ad hoc webinars, but now we're doing a regular cadence, so people are expecting to see something coming out of Postman.

The other thing is, I think the audience, the audience is a captive audience.

They're attending, they're registering and they're attending.

Whether or not they're engaged the entire time, I'm not entirely sure about.

Because if you picture yourself sitting at a conference listening to somebody talk, there's social pressure not to just get up and leave or make a sandwich or go to the bathroom.

In this case, I'm not sure how engaged they are, but they're attending in droves.

Patrick: That's cool. To go into the weeds a bit on tooling, what are you using for your virtual events?

Joyce: For live streaming we're currently using Twitch, just to experiment with it because it's the cool kid.

Again, I love what they're doing over there. It's so much fun to do a live stream.

For webinars, we're using Zoom, but over a thousand people when people are in the chatter doing Q&A, it's not a good tool for that .

We had one webinar that was 20,000 people and people were asking questions, and we had a whole host of Postman people trying to answer their questions and the tech was not stable enough for that.

So, if you know of a good Q&A platform, I would love to hear.

Patrick: We haven't heard of any great ones yet, although I think there's a lot of innovation happening in that space. I'm excited you brought up streaming.

I know it's something you've been working on, I noticed from your tweets and such.

Tell me about that experience, what's so exciting about the streaming? What's working for you? What are you pumped about?

Joyce: I wish I knew what made it so exciting for me, but I look forward to it every week.

Part of it is that I get to prepare something that is A) technical, I'm not doing administrative bullshit. I'm actually working on something that's interesting to me.

The second part is that interacting with the audience is so much cooler than if I'm in an in person--

If I'm giving a workshop, people will raise their hand because they want to be polite. They're not just like yelling stuff at me, like heckling or just throwing ideas out there.

It's truly the users watching that stream that get to shape the content and get to shape the outcome, and even though I've done a trial run to make sure I have my API keys or I have Python installed or something, they're driving it. It's very exciting.

My adrenaline after a live stream is high.

Patrick: So what's the format? How do you structure it?

Joyce: So my coworker in London, Arlémi, hosts it. He broadcasts it.

I'm in San Francisco, and then sometimes we have guests, either internal guests from Postman, or I think Nico--

You were talking about Nicholas earlier, Nicholas was our first external guest and we just hacked on something.

In the case with Nicholas, we used Type Form webhook to hook that up to a Postman webhook.

This was stuff that people at Postman weren't aware was possible too, so it was fun but then people do get to learn about stuff.

Patrick: That's fun.

Joyce: I think that's one reason why I'm excited about the live stream as a channel, too.

The webinars that drive thousands of viewers, there's a lot of bureaucracy that we have to go set things up properly.

We have to go create slides and then the slides have to get approved, and that kind of stuff.

Whereas the live streams are organic, they're very fly by the seat of your pants, and because the audience is driving it you can't prepare for every solution.

It's just a lot, and it takes a lot less effort and then people still get some good quality content.

Patrick: It seems like it's a reasonable proxy for the serendipity of an in-person interaction, versus the highly structured format of a big webinar.

Joyce: Absolutely. I mean, there's a few ways you can interact with people nowadays, but it's not real time and it's not in a group like this.

Patrick: That's cool. What would you say has been your proudest moment as a developer advocate?

Joyce: The times that I am most proud, where I do feel like a mother hen, is when I get to show somebody something that they didn't know and their eyes light up.

They're like, "Thank you so much." And you know they're going to go tell their coworker and then feel like the hero, so that's when I'm proud and I feel like the hero.

Which developer advocates, people in DevRel get to do all the time, but that drives my endorphins too.

Patrick: It's sort of related to the discussion around empathy, and how important that is.

Joyce: Yeah. With developer tools, I think you're in the prime spot to just--

Everything that comes out of your mouth could help somebody , so you're doing good even if you're not finding the cure for cancer you're doing good.

You're still a megaphone that touches people, that then touches so many more people beyond that.

Patrick: Yeah, there's so much leverage because you're helping the builders build more effectively.

Joyce: It's the old gold rush, gold pickaxe analogy, which I'm not saying properly right now.

But if you can build the pickaxes and the buckets-- I'm watching Deadwood right now, is why that came to mind.

But then you don't have to build the gold.

Patrick: Yeah, that's right. On the other side of that coin, what would you say has been your biggest challenge as a developer advocate?

Joyce: That changes year to year. When I first started, it was just that we were a startup.

We were all generalists and I got to do whatever I wanted, and now we're starting to come back to what I hear other DevRel complaining about.

"What are your OKRs? How do you justify your salary to the company? Why are you spending your time doing this live stream when we have the webinar?"

Stuff like that. I'm so spoiled that now I'm starting to deal with some of those challenges, but they're real.

As your company experiences success and as you build your organization, you will have these growing pains.

Patrick: Yeah, totally.

We've touched on some of this stuff, but I'm interested, how are you navigating those different expectations from management?

Joyce: Part of it is just education.

You can hire people, but if they weren't doing developer marketing or they haven't interacted with developers or haven't used your tech or any tech, part of it's just education.

Just saying that there is a difference in how business should be conducted without being a special snowflake.

There is a difference, though. And you can see it with your metrics. I haven't cracked that, not yet.

Patrick: I think it's the number one question in our field right now, it seems.

Both as budgets are constricting for macroeconomic reasons, but also as the field matures.

I think it's just a story we're all trying to figure out how to tell, a story in data. I think that's the secret.

But instrumenting the systems and having the telemetry is tough.

Part of what we're trying to solve as a company, but it's still tough.

Joyce: Any time I interact with DevRel colleagues, the last conference I was at over Happy Hour I was like, "If you don't mind my asking, what are your OKRs for developer relations?"

And just comparing that across companies that are about the same size, about the same stage.

Every DevRel group, I think, that grows to a certain size struggles with "How can you justify anything, or your existence, and how can you continue doing work that's valuable without selling out?"

Patrick: What do you think selling out means in this context?

Joyce: This is something that came up just recently, and I know we've talked before.

I think I tweeted a blog post that you and Josh wrote about the Orbit model.

This morning we had a DevRel sync, and there's so many new people to DevRel that I said, "Let's just talk about what is DevRel, what is DevRel at Postman, yada yada."

The first link that I dropped in our chat was a link to that blog post, and then of course, our community manager who is brand new is like, "That's one of the first resources that I came across when I was deciding, 'What is this world that I just found myself in? And just explaining to people the difference."

I think the TL;DR for that blog post was the difference between conversion and connection.

So this is something that DevRel gets because they see it, but again it's anecdotal.

It can't be rolled up into a spreadsheet, or you can try but how can you really demonstrate that across an organization?

Especially when a lot of fruit doesn't come to bear for many moons?

I think the next step is just explaining to the broader marketing team, which DevRel reports up through, the difference between conversion and connection.

And why "Yes. We should dedicate resources to this thing like live stream."

Live stream is something that we don't have hundreds of viewers on our live stream, and yet we have thousands of users on the webinar.

Why should we invest in this type of channel when you can clearly see the numbers registered for webinar?

Patrick: And what's your answer to that question?

Joyce: For the live stream, it's pretty much a no-brainer for me.

I get to have conversations with people that are much deeper than me broadcasting to them.

First of all, it's a two-way conversation. Secondly, I'm getting-- Like, Nicholas was our first guest.

He popped in for one of the live streams, thought it was cool, and he was like "Sign me up. We can shake a blog post."

I'm doing that, like the guys from Twitter show up all the time and we worked with their API and they're like, "Let's do something together."

So that's immediate fruit, but it doesn't always have to be immediate fruit.

We're inspiring people to do things and we're educating them.

It's a no-brainer from a DevRel perspective, but it's hard if people don't know what live streams are.

No, it's true. Like, I was brand new to live streams. I'm like, "How is it different than webinars?"

I go to my computer, I look at the screen, it's the same thing.

But it's fundamentally different in terms of how you can engage through that channel.

Patrick: What are you reading these days?

Joyce: Read? I'm really into zombie apocalypse.

I'm really into dystopian future contagion, so I'm in the middle of this zombie series called Dead World, but it's pretty gory and it's hitting close to home.

So along those lines, a book I can recommend. Are you remotely into this as a genre?

Patrick: Slightly. Post-apocalyptic dystopian stuff, I would say, generally. Zombie less so, but I'm a reader, so let me have it.

Joyce: So "Zombie" is just a proxy for the dystopia, and it could be substituted for anything, but something that you may have read then, it's called One Second After.

It's about an electromagnetic pulse and what happens to society after the EMP goes off.

The foreword was written by Newt Gingrich, who is--

I don't know what kind of politician he was, I don't follow politics that much, so it's like a legitimate person maybe that wrote this foreword about what would happen if an EMP hit the US. That's all I'll say.

It's actually really-- No, I won't say any more.

Patrick: That's really cool. No, I think that's really great. Foreword by former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, OK . So one question I always ask, is this is a podcast called Developer Love. What are you loving right now?

Joyce: I actually really enjoy working from home, and I think it's a good way to level the playing field when it comes to interacting with your community.

When I do the live stream, we pick Twitch, but it is US and Europe centric.

But we're getting people from all over the place and we picked a predominantly good for West Coast work hours, "You forgot your lunch break. Stop by."

But we're getting all these people chiming in and thinking things are neat and being able to interact, being able to work from home and not have San Francisco be the major hub or New York City be a major hub, or whatever.

It really levels the playing field so that anybody can interact online.

So, yes, I like working from home because I get to spend all day with my dog and she can act a fool without me being embarrassed by my coworkers, but I also really like what it's doing for how I can interact with the community.

Patrick: That's cool. How do you stay sharp?

How do you stay up to date on the field of DevRel or community, or generally professionally? Where do you turn for resources?

Joyce: There's a few DevRel-specific channels that I follow.

I'm part of the DevRel Collective, the Slack community where people can go and chat with people. I'm going to be speaking at DevRelCon Earth, but DevRelCon London was my favorite DevRel event.

I went two years ago I think, and every speaker had the most amazing insights and they were sharing it with the rest of the community. That was amazing.

San Francisco had meet ups, and in fact when I was live streaming they hosted AWS, Twitch and Glitch, I think, were the three panelists.

It was just like they had been streaming forever, and I was like, "What is this Twitch that you speak of?"

It was just so helpful being able to share that, but I don't go hunting that much in the DevRel channels.

But because I am a developer advocate I consume a lot of tech very shallowly, so when I consume a startup-- Like, you just told me about a startup I'd never heard of.

So when I go to their site and I try out their tech, I always file stuff away and then show people in our select group.

Patrick: Yeah, that's awesome. Most of the people in our space and everyone I've spoken with on the podcast, just everybody's got their own information machines.

Some are consuming a lot of DevRel specific stuff, most people are consuming a lot of new interesting technologies because everybody's on the lookout for "Who is the next partnership?"

Or, "Who's the next person I want to have on the podcast or the stream?" Or, "Who can I build an integration with?"

Joyce: Like Postman, we're redoing our docs.

Just consuming other people's documentation sounds pretty dry, but I get excited when I see somebody doing something well.

Then if Postman can adapt it and make Postman docs that much better then let's do it.

And no one's territorial, I haven't come across anybody in DevRel that's really territorial about their insights.

They're always willing to share their OKRs, so far.

They're willing to share their challenges in OKRs, and they're willing to share little bits and blurbs that they pick up along the way.

Patrick: Yeah, that's awesome. Definitely a very open community when it comes to content sharing and insight sharing.

I think we all want the field and the discipline to exist , so it's a rising tide "Lifts all boats" kind of thing, at least I hope.

Joyce: Maybe that hot take, that controversial hot take that my coworker Sue had, maybe I disagree with it then, because I have experienced a lot of inclusivity as a career changer.

I don't know. I don't know what to think about that one yet.

Patrick: Food for thought? Awesome. Joyce, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It's been a real pleasure.

Joyce: Of course, this was a lot of fun.

I look forward to hearing what other people have to say, because I gave a lot more question marks than I did answers.

I'm curious to hear the rest of your podcast.

Patrick: Awesome.